Exploited? Hardly.

Standard

It’s come to my attention (and been commented in my blog) that some people appear to believe that I am being used by various people. I suppose it’s more comforting for some people to believe that, than to believe that I could make my own decisions about which people, and which viewpoints, I prefer to associate myself with.

(Although I’ve also been told recently that apparently being severely disabled should make me incapable of even knowing my sexual preference or deciding whether to have children or not, so go figure. Hint on that one: It, is, done, all, the, time.)

This weekend Kathleen Seidel and her family (including autistic kid) came by. They visited me and Laura Tisoncik on their way somewhere, just to hang out. They walked my dog to the park with me, then came back and took me and Laura out to dinner, then hung out and talked for a bit afterwards.

It always amazes me, actually knowing Kathleen, how much vitriol is aimed in her direction. I know her as a nice person who cares deeply about other people, including autistic people, and who is working very hard not just for her child but for other autistic people. I have a fairly accurate bullshit-meter, and Kathleen does not peg it in any way. She also drove me to AutCom awhile back, gave me a good deal of assistance in the hotel (even down to facilitation when I needed my arm held so I could type), and read my speech for me, which was all about how to best provide assistance for autistic people, what does and doesn’t work. We gave that speech there alongside three other autistic people, one also who uses typing to communicate (but can then read his words allowed), and two who speak.

There was no exploitation going on — if anything, I was using Kathleen for a lot of assistance that I don’t normally expect from people, that she gave uncomplainingly the entire time. She has in the past even driven out here to provide assistance and backup at crucial meetings with the developmental services people who had wanted me to live in a more restrictive setting. She came out and helped me fight that. She strikes me very much as a person who doesn’t just talk the talk, she walks the walk. And she’s also generous and funny and interesting as a person, hence the fact that we just hang out sometimes. Our relationship is one of equals, it’s not even the sort of mentor relationship I have had with Laura, it’s just we’re people who like each other and have fun talking, and also happen to agree on a lot of disability politics.

Similarly, I met Anne Bevington awhile back at a booksigning by Dawn Prince-Hughes. She later came by my house to help me out when my staff was sick. She’s a lawyer with an autistic son. She also wrote a letter for me, in her legal capacity, when I was facing that same threat of a more restrictive living environment. And also volunteered to come to meetings with the Regional Center in California as my lawyer. Again, she’s a very nice person, who does more than just talk about things.

And then there’s Laura herself. She sacrificed pretty close to everything else in her life for awhile trying to get me on my feet in early adulthood, when very few other people knew what to do. She gave me step by step instructions on everything, sometimes for 12, 24, 36 hours straight, because I had so much trouble moving (compounded by having to do so many things, and not getting enough food to eat) that I needed constant reminders on what to do with every limb. She did this because she was my friend, and because she knew what the alternatives were. She helped me get services, and she helped me recover from my experiences in institutions enough that I’m no longer in a constant state of flashback. During that time period, she put many of her projects on the side in order to assist me, and her health deteriorated from lack of sleep and stress. (Note: I don’t think this is a natural effect of a disabled person on someone, I think it’s a natural effect of supports not being distributed well enough, so that everything falls onto one person.)

And she did this, not to be a do-gooder, but because she cared about me and thought it was the right thing to do — she also helped me gain a lot of skills I didn’t have at the time, including many related to communication. She did not want me to end up institutionalized or, like she had been at points in her life, homeless. While these days our relationship is far more equal — we even live next door to each other, and we help each other out pretty close to equally, if alternately — at that point she was doing way more for me than most people would for someone. (Relationships don’t have to be exactly equal at every point in time, that’s kind of unnatural given how humans work, and it also becomes ableist as an idea.)

And yet people accused her once of “using” me too. They assumed that she wrote my website, and stuck my pictures alongside her writing. When really, if it’s in sheer amount of assistance received from someone else, she’s done way more for me in terms of actual physical tasks and stuff, and at a lot more sacrifice to herself. But people don’t see that, they just see one person who looks more normal, and one person who looks less normal, and they see the one who’s more normal exploiting the one who’s less normal. Even if the person who’s less normal comes up with an idea, it’ll be credited to the more normal person.

I’ll also note that I’m selective about who I allow to assist me with certain things. I don’t let people stick around just because they are (or think they are) doing something for me. I’ve had both autistic and non-autistic people try that, and I tend to stop talking to them where possible. The people I end up liking, treat me with respect, they don’t treat me like I’m beholden to them (and have to like them, etc) if they do something for me, they just treat me like someone they like.

And what’s happening here, is that, I’m apparently, supposedly, not really choosing my friends, or my opinions. Even when I am the one coming up with the opinions, other people are accused of putting those opinions in my mouth — that’s even if I influenced them, and not the other way around, mind you. Last year when there was a major conflict at my apartment complex, I sometimes had ideas, and then Laura followed up on them, but she was accused of leading me into these things even if I led her into them. They basically did the “Don’t exploit the poor little retarded woman” line and even if I was coming up with some of the ideas they wouldn’t believe it.

It’s strange to me, though. I’ve been exploited by some people, and those people are often held up as paragons of virtue. But when I form friendships (which by the way, for most of my life I didn’t have, so this is amazing, that I even have casual friends now) of my own free will, and relationships based on shared opinions, in which our opinions flow back and forth between us freely, with kind, generous, funny, cool people that I happen to like and who care deeply about the world and other people, who sometimes help me out and I sometimes help them out, and so forth, then they are somehow evil and exploitative, and I am somehow their victim. How can these people — who seem totally genuine to me, more genuine than most people, and their words match their actions in so many ways — be the supposedly hateful, vicious, cruel, neglectful, exploitative people that others make them into? Just because, I suppose, their (and my) opinions are unpopular.

So just for reference: I don’t want anyone’s pity for anything, but least of all for having the great friends I have, or holding my well-considered political opinions.

Of course, this reply will probably be considered useless. The person who brought up exploitation also said, and I quote, “I don’t care what Amanda Baggs tells us now under the influence of Neurodiversity. Her opinion means nothing as it it the words of someone who has never known what it is like to enjoy life without autism.” When I tried to argue, I was told that my points are “meaningless” and that I won’t ever know independence or freedom. Oh well.

About Mel Baggs

Hufflepuff. Came from the redwoods. Crochet or otherwise create constantly and compulsively. Write poetry and paint when I can. Physically and cognitively disabled. Anything you hear in the media or gossip is likely to be oversimplified at best and wildly inaccurate at worst, the only way to get to know me is to actually know me. I'm not really part of any online faction or another, even ones that claim me as a member. The thing in the world most important to me is having love and compassion for other people, although I don't always measure up to my own standards there by a longshot. And individual specific actions and situations and contexts matter a lot more to me than broadly-spoken abstract words and ideas about a topic. My father died a couple years ago and that has changed my life a lot in ways that are still evolving, but I wear a lot of his clothes and hats every day since he died and have shown no sign of stopping soon.

97 responses »

  1. Some people try so hard to find reasons to dismiss what you say because it doesn’t fit with their predetermined template for being autistic. Wouldn’t it be easier to just listen and consider other viewpoints without suspicion?

  2. Her opinion means nothing as it it the words of someone who has never known what it is like to enjoy life without autism.

    I wonder if they think the same thing of pro-cure autistics who have never known life without autism.

  3. It is kind of pointless trying to have a discussion with someone who’s already decided to dismiss anything you say as brainwashing or maniupulation. Hopefully, some of the people who’ve read his words and decide to look into matters will read this and learn the truth.

  4. Amanda,

    JBJr and the rest of his dimwitted tribe will always be at this sort of game. They have no alternative. They can’t be reasoned out of corners they reasoned themselves into on the chelation issue, despite that they know it’s crap: if it weren’t, they’d have better evidence than the ‘evidence’ they keep pushing out now.

    I’ve just found out that Susan Lord, aka jonsmum is much more base and nasty in her intent than her (evidently) mock ‘apology’ to me would otherwise have suggested.

    The only way they can stop people like us from discussing our political aim (which, with a small’p’, is what it is) on the net is by coming onto our blogs and causing the blog equivalent of a system hang (which is precisely why I don’t have a blog).

    They clearly represent the least charitable and least caring of people, and act in unbelievably cowardly and vile ways towards people who – at some point in our lives – have been in the same (or very similar) autistic states as their own kids. I would be very unsurprised to learn that they treat those kids like they treat us, on the basis of both JBJr’s and Susan Lord’s recent behaviour towards me.

    And the best of it is… here’s me, with my dad in hospital and if one were to ask if they can decide to ease off while I’m trying to prepare for my dad’s death (which is not too far in the future – I spoke to him last night, and also to his nurse: this is a palliative care stage… there is no recovery from hereon in). No, they evidently can’t. They are trying as best they can to try and detract me from preparing for a major stressful incident an anyone’s life… to give them my attention instead of get to grips with the fact that my father is dying.

    I mean… how selfish is that?!

    Amanda, this is the nature of JBJr and Susan Lord, and all their other little pals and sock-puppets, and it’ll be a very cold day in hell beefore any of them show any sort of humanity to anyone who disagrees with them.

    I can’t help but think that their whole basis for their reaction to us is that they want pity in such a selfish and egotistical manner; so much so that they cannot bear it that we have to deal with real issues in our lives, and that all they do is to make them worse.

    I really feel sorry for their children.

    It is clear that they were the ones using you, rather than anyone else, but they are so pathologically deluded that they cannot admit this.

    But this is what I for one have come to expect from that set of ignorant, self-centred, egomaniacs.

    They aren’t worth any more attention. They certainly weren’t worth what they were given.

  5. It probably is useful to Kathleen for me to be saying something that I’ve been saying since before I ever heard of her. It’s useful to me, too, and to others. Being useful is neither criminal nor exploitative.

    I’ve met plenty of exploitative phonies before. Kathleen isn’t the type, trust me.

    How is life going in the nightmarish abyss of bigotry?

  6. John: You’re just too funny. So in your view Kathleen invented neurodiversity, became a sort of leader of the movement, who then tricked Amanda into joining it? I’m curious. Tell us more about this “normality”.

  7. Another thing I have noticed (since I was bullied extensively as a kid) is the same kind of bullying tactics used by some of those from curebie nation – especially when they get together on a group. Is this what really makes them go off about this stuff – are they just grownup versions of schoolyard bullies? Not everyone who is a curebie feels like this – some genuinely do what they think is best for their child and I am on some groups with them and they are tolerable people. But others truly seem to have a sincere dislike for those that are different. There was really no one in the ND movement who influenced me – it has been the very words of those in the mercury only groups that show how they truly feel and that anyone who is different is rejected by them.

  8. David;
    “Mock apology”
    Actually, my apology was sincere. Unlike your “mock” denial of posting your nasty comment about my autistic son.
    Your pathetic ramblings about how someone may have used your computer to post the comment gave you away.
    I chose not to make an issue of this until you started posting abusive anonymous comments on Orac’s blog.

    “rightslapper”
    “piss and tuck”
    “is there a cat walking on your keyboard”
    “secondary school”
    “Ewww”

    Recognise these comments David? You should do. You made them.
    For a Scottsman your English is a dead giveaway, jonsmum’s dictionary/Al Fah Cajun Cowboy/any mouse

    How you have the nerve to come here talking about a “Mock apology” after you said “one day you kid will kick the shit out of you for being too stupid to realise he’s not a worthless being! I’d love to video that day! Stupid sod! LOL! One day…idiot”

    “I really feel sorry for their children.”

    You’re sick!

    Is this your idea of autism advocacy?
    Is this your idea of respect for autistics?
    Are you the “Nice guy” from Finland?
    Shame on you.

  9. JB wrote: “..nightmarish abyss of autism”

    Just out of curiousity, why do you persist in claiming that autism is nightmarish? Someones’ neurology doesn’t change the fact that gravity applies the same way to everyone, and is consistent enough that we design one entire wall of every room to be ‘down’. Likewise, my socks keep my feet warm, rather than gnawing on my toes. (Credit that last dream to falling asleep with my feet where the dog could reach them.)

    Likewise, I don’t see where you’re coming from about autism automatically placing one in an “abyss”. If you’re referring to the world and day-to-day life as abyssal, I have to wonder what sort of sensory deprivation you think autistics are subject to. From my own experience, and accounts by other autistics, we can and do find the world a full, sensory-rich place. Sometimes overwhelmingly so, but I have yet to know anyone who’d trade it in.

  10. Jonsmum,

    You are sick.

    “Unlike your ‘mock’ denial of posting your nasty comment about my autistic son.”

    Wrong. I didn’t post that.

    “‘rightslapper’
    ‘piss and tuck’
    ‘is there a cat walking on your keyboard’
    ‘secondary school’
    ‘Ewww'”

    On Orac’s blog, you say? Sorry to disappoint you again… never posted there.

    “You should do. You made them.”

    No I didn’t.

    “jonsmum’s dictionary/Al Fah Cajun Cowboy/any mouse”

    I am none of those. Seriously.

    “‘I really feel sorry for their children.'”

    Given your behaviour, yes, I do. That one I posted up above here, because, for the reasons stated, I do feel sorry for them.

    I certainly find that you behave in a very two-faced manner, and a number of others do too.

    “Is this your idea of autism advocacy?”

    Is what my idea of autism advocacy?

    “Is this your idea of respect for autistics?”

    You lecture me on respect for autistics?

    “Are you the ‘Nice guy’ from Finland?”

    A lot nicer than your pal, JBJr, for sure. Until you piss me off, then you get what you deserve.

    “Shame on you.”

    Shame on you, Susan, for lying like you are.

    Too bad you can’t lie convincingly.

  11. LB: “Is this what really makes them go off about this stuff – are they just grownup versions of schoolyard bullies?”

    Evidently, yes.

  12. Sorry you have to experience such inept bigotry Amanda. I see the gruesome twosome have made their usual appearance.

    “Actually, my apology was sincere. Unlike your “mock” denial of posting your nasty comment about my autistic son.”

    I can’t keep up with you Susan – is it OK or not to make nasty comments about people’s kids? How about assuming their identity? Is this your idea of autism advocacy? Is this your idea of respect for autistics?

    “Recognise these comments David? You should do. You made them.”

    You seem confused. On Orac’s blog you’ve just accused me of making those comments. Since I happen to know who did make them I can categorically state that you are wrong on both counts.

  13. Ah, Kevin Leitch, the chief bully himself.
    If you’ve got a problem with someone impersonating your daughter, take it up with the person you’re accusing, and stop following me around like a bad smell.
    What’s wrong with you? Too scared to confront JB? Trying to get to him through me?

  14. 403,

    “Just out of curiousity, why do you persist in claiming that autism is nightmarish?”

    Er, because it can be. The fact that you are unable to recognize this points to you believing that autism is not a disability, which is a wee bit sick and twisted.

  15. Has anyone in the mercury only crowd spoken up against the sort of behavior exhibited by JB? Since more people have been turned off from their message because of this behavior the only reason for doing it then must be some sort of enjoyment derived from behaving that way.

  16. You haven’t behaved in any way at all towards twisted jerks who tout celebrating brain damage, because you’ve never talked to any. I doubt LB is a liar, or for that matter a knucklehead with Asperger’s.

    Real scientists welcome people trying to discredit their work, scrutiny strengthens scientific knowledge.

  17. JB: Psychopaths who try to discredit esteemed scientists who help autistic children do not deserve any respect

    The esteemed scientists you refer to haven’t earned enough credit to be discredited. The fact that you call other people psychopaths when you disagree with their opinions, really says it all John.

  18. Real scientists welcome people trying to discredit their work, scrutiny strengthens scientific knowledge, but I doubt they welcome people who try to stop their work before it’s even off the ground.
    Or appreciate criticism and scrutiny from members of the general public who don’t have clue about real scientists and their work.

  19. i just want to mention that (although i have met a few knuckleheads with aspergers [none of whom is at this site] — and hundreds of ‘normal’ knuckleheads) … but that’s beside the point), i have learned a lot of things about my own and my husband’s functioning through reading explanations by Amanda and others whose autism makes them seem to, if i can say it this way, process things even more differently from the usual than we seem to. a mental (neurological?) process that is recognizably the same, but more noticeable in degree, has often given me that “aha!” lightbulb that made me realize how to appreciate something strange but useful, or how to deal with something confusing in one or both of our lives.
    Thank you for that, AB (and some of my fellow spectrum commenters, too).

  20. Real scientists follow ethical guidelines and don’t encourage vulnerable parents to commit insurance fraud so that they can get away with using children as experimental test subjects, especially when they are employing dangerous drugs with known side effects and unknown long-term effects.

  21. I have been suspected of being people like Camille and Autism Diva (the second claim is the more illogical, considering how different our writing styles are) and was widely disbelieved when I stated my age on the EOHarm list (evidently they either haven’t heard of giftedness or are unaware it can coexist with autism). One person googled the name ‘Ettina’, found some thing where I quoted a woman who described her husband and son as ADHD, and used it as ‘evidence’ that I had a husband and son. I was also accused of working for a pharmaceutical company. It seems many of the mercury=autism types are in the habit of assuming dozens of people to be one and the same.
    Maybe you have heard no complaints about your behavior from mercury=autism people, but when I was verbally attacked by the EOHarm group I got numerous private e-mails from members who didn’t support that kind of verbal abuse, many of whom quite politely expressed their disagreement with my viewpoint. Perhaps they are afraid to openly disagree with you because of seeing your verbal attacks on anyone who disagrees?

  22. Ballastexistenz,

    “Disability is in no way a word equivalent to nightmarish (as you’d probably know if you knew enough disabled people).”

    I’m sure there are a few out there that would qualify, especially those that cause pain and suffering.

    My son is disabled, is that not enough? Are you disabled?

  23. All I can say is, autism like snails:
    How can you know you wouldn’t like it unless you try it?!

    btw, escargots in pesto and garlic? Magnifique.
    Had it once, 10 yrs ago, still remembering it.

    PS: no, I haven’t tried every flavor of autism, only my own. but i do have the sense to take others’ word for what their own lives are like. How hard is that, really?!

  24. ‘“rightslapper”’
    ‘Recognise these comments David? You should do. You made them.
    For a Scottsman your English is a dead giveaway, jonsmum’s dictionary/Al Fah Cajun Cowboy/any mouse’

    Yeah, because no American could figure out to ask you about your flatmate. Strike that, Dick VanDyke might have been able to put on his authentic accent and got away with this heist.

    Did Mr. VanDyke coerce Kathleen into corecing Amanda into coercing jonsmum to say something like, “You should do.”? I wonder why he didn’t choose “You should loo.”?

    Hey MinigolfBest, who are these esteemed scientists? Please say, “Bradstreet” or “Butter”, we’re all in need of a good laugh thinking about the materials and methods section of a paper about exorcisms and urine injections.

  25. “What’s wrong with you? Too scared to confront JB? Trying to get to him through me?”

    Oh I tried. He deleted my comment on that cesspit blog of his. He and I also went at it at Joseph’s blog. Just like you he’s too cowardly to see whats right and wrong.

    I didn’t impersonate your kid”

    Yes you did John. Its not a matter of opinion. You’ve still not managed to figure out that you can be seen anywhere on the web. But you’ll keep.

  26. Kevin_1000: I’m well aware, from experience, of things that cause plenty of pain and suffering. (Far more than autism ever could, in fact.) But that’s not what you said. You said that if someone said autism wasn’t nightmarish, they were saying it wasn’t “a disability”. Which means that in order for something to be “a disability” it has to be nightmarish or close to it. I was saying, that’s not true, at all. Regarding your question, of course I’m disabled, why would I be involved with the disability rights movement as a disabled person otherwise?

    John Best: I didn’t see any gangrene on Kathleen’s child, or any autistic child who hasn’t sustained the same sort of injury that would give anyone gangrene. Autism is not “rotting”.

  27. Yeah there’s a lot more to life than typing on a computer, which is why it’s not what I do all the time. I have taken many steps to improve my existence. I don’t think my existence would be improved by becoming non-autistic, or I’d do it. Your paternalism speaks for itself.

  28. Ballastexistenz,

    What I was saying was that autism could be ‘nightmarish’ depending on the severity and anyone who can’t recognize that is denying someone’s disability. It’s like me saying that you’re not disabled.

  29. What I was saying was that autism could be ‘nightmarish’ depending on the severity and anyone who can’t recognize that is denying someone’s disability. It’s like me saying that you’re not disabled.

    Kevin_1000: No, that’s not what you were saying. You suggested that anyone who can’t recognize autism is ‘nightmarish’ must believe autism is not a disability. And I would even question your rewording above. Is it even true that autism will be perceived as ‘nightmarish’ depending on its so-called ‘severity’ (meaning more noticeably autistic) ? Did you know that “high functioning” autistics apparently have more anxiety than “low functioning” ones? There are probably very “mild” autistics who do perceive autism as ‘nighmarish’, and there definitely are very “severe” autistics who do not. Finally, even if someone were to state that autism is never ‘nightmarish’ under any circumstances, I still don’t see how that constitues “denying someone’s disability”.

  30. IdiotCentral: “Brains that don’t work right can’t understand things as well as brains that are not disabled.”

    We can see that… because you’re brain doesn’t work right.

  31. I don’t have any diagnosis which means my brain is working fine.

    More nonsense. There are plenty of people about whom the popular concensus is that they are “stupid” or something similar and they don’t have a formal diagnosis of anything. George Bush might be an example.

  32. Arse: “That means your brain isn’t working properly or you wouldn’t have earned the diagnosis.”

    Actually, you’re entirely wrong on that. Working differently, yes. Working improperly… oh boy, you have no idea how wide of the mark you are! LoL

  33. “You continue to name autistic children on your blog. Was this done with their parent’s permission? You are a lowlife and entitled to any abuse anyone sees fit to give you.”

    All of which is perfectly fine John. I’m a grown-up. I don’t give a stuff what a spineless coward like you thinks of me. However, you have attacked my daughter. A child. You assumed her identity and made her the butt of your jokes. That’s not fine John. That’s a long way from fine.

  34. JBJr: “I still think the person posting on AWARES was the actress.”

    The likelihood is very low… what’s more likely is that it was you.

    JBJr: “I think you’re paranoid, Kev.”

    Nah, I don’t think he is.

    JBJr: “Maybe Andrews can give you some psychological help.”

    He doesn’t need any.

  35. Joseph,

    In essence what I’m saying is: If you deny autism can be ‘nightmarish’ you are denying someone’s disability. The comment is specifically aimed at 403, who obviously believes it can’t be which suggests he doesn’t believe autism is a disability. He can, of course, tell me otherwise?

  36. To the ‘neurodiverse’:

    Autism advocacy means the right to free will, acceptance and treatment/cure. They can co-exist. It certainly doesn’t mean “we don’t need no stinkin’ cure”.

  37. Ballastexistenz,

    It’s nice of you to assume I’m not autistic/ND!

    I think I have the right as my son is autistic, don’t you? Or do you think you’ve sole rights on autism?

  38. You have a right to say anything you want. However, it’s kind of silly to define to autistic people that what they are doing in the way of advocacy is not advocacy, no matter who you are — just because you don’t happen to like what people are advocating, doesn’t make it unreal.

    I note also that you and jonsmum have absolutely identical IP addresses — do you live together?

  39. In essence what I’m saying is: If you deny autism can be ‘nightmarish’ you are denying someone’s disability.

    Which, in essence, is false, but that’s not getting through apparently.

    The comment is specifically aimed at 403, who obviously believes it can’t be which suggests he doesn’t believe autism is a disability.

    403 complained about a claim that autism was nightmarish. He/She did not state autism can’t be nightmarish. But that’s just semantics. This does not suggest what you claim still.

  40. Joseph,

    I have the right to believe what I wish, as do you. So unless 403 comes back and tells me otherwise I’ll will interpret it the way I see it, just as you have.

  41. Yes we live together, it’s no secret.
    Get down off your pulpit Amanda. It’s non autistic people that care about you and “provide assistance for autistic people”. You said it.

    Being autistic gives YOU no more justification to preach to non autistic parents of autistic children about “autism advocacy”.

    “Takes a lot of nerve for a non-autistic guy to preach to autistic people about what autism advocacy is and isn’t.”

    Doesn’t it just. As parents, we have opinions, views and the right to teach our children a balanced definition of “autism advocacy”.

    Your opinion on autism advocacy is your opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

  42. Mr Seidel,

    “…especially when they are employing dangerous drugs with known side effects and unknown long-term effects.”

    Dangerous drugs? Known side effects? Unknow long-term effects?

    The long-term effects of baked beans on the bowel is still relatively unknown. One man claimed he found it difficult to walk as uncontrollable bouts of flatulence racked his body. He has been unable to replicate the results. He says the smell won’t leave him alone. Scientists are waiting for more data as they don’t want to blow things out of proportion.

  43. Kevin, the rest of the world’s autistic population are not your children.

    Both autistic and non-autistic people care about me and provide assistance to autistic people. But that has no relevance to what you’ve said.

    I’ve never said my opinion is anything more than my opinion, although it’s certainly an opinion shared by a large number of autistic people, all of whom came up with similar opinions independently of each other. Which should tell you something right there.

    But I repeat, non-autistic people, parents or not, have little business telling groups of autistic adults who are not even their children what our political beliefs should be, and the fact that they have the right to instruct their own children in the matter should not change this. Unwillingness to differentiate instruction of your own children from discussing these things with grown adults who are members of a self-advocacy movement that sets its own agenda, reflects total ignorance of the political situation autistic people are faced with. Including that it’s ridiculous that other people’s parents claim more legitimacy than our own opinions about what’s in our best interests, and routinely make statements that show confusion about whether they have the same rights over the rest of us that they do over their own children.

    As for pulpits, I’m not on one. You’re the one preaching at autistic adults about what to think about ourselves, and deciding to define advocacy for the rest of us, only as you see fit. Even advocacy of killing autistic people is still advocacy, it’s twisted advocacy that I’d never endorse, but calling it not advocacy misses the definition of advocacy.

  44. “Including that it’s ridiculous that other people’s parents claim more legitimacy than our own opinions about what’s in our best interests, and routinely make statements that show confusion about whether they have the same rights over the rest of us that they do over their own children.”

    You’ve addressed the wrong person. I made those comments, not Kevin. You’ve missed the point. Which was, your opinion is your opinion. My opinion is mine. Quote where I claimed more legitimacy than your own opinions about what’s in your best interests.
    Don’t imply it quote it.

  45. I already noticed that my opinion is mine, and your opinion is yours. I talked about telling autistic people (the ones who say “we don’t need no stinkin’ cure”, which I assume is not your child) what to think about autism, and you responded discussing your right to instruct your child. Nobody on this blog, to my knowledge, is your child, and I still think that it takes a lot of nerve for parents to tell a bunch of autistic people what parts of our advocacy are and are not legitimate — no matter which one of you is doing it.

    I’ve never told you guys that what you do isn’t advocacy, even if I’ve disagreed with it. I expect the same in return, and not excuses about how you have a right to teach your children what advocacy is. People you’re talking to here are not your children, end of story.

  46. It’s odd that Kevin would ASSUME it was his daughter if she did not make any references to that assumption.

    Just stop it with that nonsense, John. It’s despicable. It’s been essentially confirmed it was you. And coincidentally someone named Megan started to post in your blog about how her parents weren’t curing her. That’s just low, even for you John.

  47. Ballstexistenz,

    What are you on about?

    Advocacy is in the eye of the beholder.

    It doesn’t matter what I think or say it won’t change your advocacy and vice versa. It’s called freedom of speech. But if you give it out, you have to take it as well, disabled or able.

    I totally respect the wishes of any parent in treating their disabled child the way they see fit.

    I totally respect the wishes of any disabled adult in the way they wish to lead their life.

  48. “Autism advocacy means the right to free will, acceptance and treatment/cure. They can co-exist.”

    I partly agree with that. That’s certainly one of the things I think of as neurodiversity. The ability for someone to act on their own choices. Also the right to ‘treatment’ if it is necessary. However, the word ‘cure’ and the implication that it is *autism* that can be ‘treated’ are both illogical. There is no treatment or cure for autism. Yet.

    One of the things that your mate John likes to rag on is what I said about my daughter – that if she desired a cure I would move heaven and earth to make sure she got it (assuming one has been invented). John thinks that’s insane because he can’t imagine an unchelated autistic person knowing their own mind. Chelation is cure to John. Chelation is treatment. He has said (and I quite directly) – parents who are not chelating their children are child abusers. Are you chelating your son Kevin? John thinks that I put my beliefs before my children. That because I would cure Megan if she wanted it that that destroys my position. He thinks this because he is unable to put his children before his opinion. If my child wants something and it is within my ability to action it, I will do it. I would be sorry but that would be my problem.

    “It certainly doesn’t mean “we don’t need no stinkin’ cure”.””

    Yes, it does. That’s exactly what it means. Autistic people do not need a cure for autism. What they need in my opinion is for their right to be who they are respected and provision made for those choices.

    However, some might want a cure (should one ever exist). Who am I to deny them that? Some people want Gender Reassignment operations. Does that mean when their gender is successfully altered that they are less ‘equal’ or have less rights? No. But here’s the thing. If a man wants to become a woman thats the right of that person. It doesn’t mean all men need a stinkin’ sex change.

  49. “People you’re talking to here are not your children, end of story.”

    Anyone with an autistic child should have opinions on “autism advocacy”. Autistic children grow into autistic adults.

    “I still think that it takes a lot of nerve for parents to tell a bunch of autistic people what parts of our advocacy are and are not legitimate — no matter which one of you is doing it.”

    If you look above the comments you’ll see the name of who has made the comment. (Just to avoid confusion).

    “I talked about telling autistic people (the ones who say “we don’t need no stinkin’ cure”, which I assume is not your child)”

    You’re right to assume it’s not my child. When idiots tout slogans saying “we don’t need no stinkin’ cure”, I will “advocate” that he does need a cure. End of story.

  50. You’ll thank us for not giving up on you once you’re cured.

    And how many autistic people have you managed to cure yet, John? BTW, we’ve seen the “cured” kids. They look just like non-cured autistic kids, according to many parents who say “hey, that looks just like my autistic kid.”

  51. “When idiots tout slogans saying “we don’t need no stinkin’ cure”, I will “advocate” that he does need a cure. End of story”

    So your son needs a cure then in your opinion? What happens to that incontrovertible necessity if he is never cured?

    Does he really need a cure or is it that you strongly desire one on his behalf? What is it about his life that leads you to think that it is a requirement of life that he is cured of autism?

  52. Kev,

    “Are you chelating your son Kevin?”

    I wouldn’t dream of answering that. You’re the kind of toad that would be straight on to the Social Services.

    “John thinks that’s insane because he can’t imagine an unchelated autistic person knowing their own mind.”

    Well, he has a point. As a parent, it’s your duty to decide whether or not your child requires ‘treatment’. If your child’s speech is delayed and in 10 years time says “why didn’t you treat my autism”, I would imagine you would feel pretty low.

    “What they need in my opinion is for their right to be who they are respected and provision made for those choices.”

    What about the autistic minors and autistics that haven’t acquired free will? They don’t fit into your little hub, do they? That’s the sad irony kev. Or do you shoe horn them in with your ‘mind bending’ techniques?

  53. “However, some might want a cure (should one ever exist). Who am I to deny them that?”

    Who are you trying to kid?

    “Does he really need a cure or is it that you strongly desire one on his behalf? What is it about his life that leads you to think that it is a requirement of life that he is cured of autism?”

    Are you really this stupid Kevin?
    Don’t bother answering.

  54. Kev;
    What really makes me laugh, is that you actually believe I can’t see right through your crap.
    You’re so transparent, you’re like ‘the invisible man’.

  55. If your child’s speech is delayed and in 10 years time says “why didn’t you treat my autism”, I would imagine you would feel pretty low.

    There are plenty of adolescent and adult autistics around. Is there an instance where this theoretical scenario has occurred? I have heard autistics say that they don’t appreciate attempted treatments they were put through. To be fair, some say that hard work did make a difference for them. If I’m not mistaken, Donna Williams says that vitamins were helpful to her. Certainly, I doubt autistics will complain that they weren’t given treatments that are as good as placebo. And I can imagine some will not be happy about the long term adverse effects of chelation therapy. It’s not clear what happens when chelation therapy is done for many years in a row, but things like kidney damage are a definite possibility. (A recent study in rats documents that DMSA can cause cognitive impairment – I can reference it if you want).

  56. Kevin_1000, do you really equate Lupron with baked beans? Or maybe you didn’t understand who the term “real doctors” refers to above?

  57. Post 38 was educational, though. It’s interesting to see someone publicly announce that if he could, he’d strip a grown woman of all legal control of her life and subject her to (presumably forcible) unproven medical treatment. And that in his fantasy this would lead to her proclaiming his wisdom in taking control of her body from her, and thanking him for it. Scary, but educational.

    It’s also interesting to see how he claims people that DON’T think like this hate autistics.

  58. J: “Post 38 was educational, though.”

    Yes, it is.

    J: “It’s interesting to see someone publicly announce that if he could, he’d strip a grown woman of all legal control of her life and subject her to (presumably forcible) unproven medical treatment.”

    He’d also have women horsewhipped for daring to disagree with him.

    J: “And that in his fantasy this would lead to her proclaiming his wisdom in taking control of her body from her, and thanking him for it.”

    Bit delusional, that bit, don’t you think?

    J: “Scary, but educational.”

    Yep.

    J: “It’s also interesting to see how he claims people that DON’T think like this hate autistics.”

    And his thinking is evidently not only delusional, but also irrational.

    And he says that Kev’s the one who needs psychological help! (Post 51)

  59. I’ve done some volunteer public health work in a developing country, including advising people on, among other things, dental care. People with pretty rotten teeth. And when I thought I knew better than someone how to take care of their health, I still treated them with respect. I present my information, advised them politely, and left them to make their own decisions. I didn’t berate, harrass, or seek to degrade people who contradicted me. I didn’t continually pester adults who had chosen not to take my advice. And I didn’t spend my time fantasizing about how I should be able to force people to get their teeth drilled.

  60. Joe; Your adult autistics who tried secretin were chasing rainbows since they were not addressing the cause. Now we know the cause. It’s a different ballgame. Don’t you agree it’s a great idea to remove the poison that caused the epidemic? Don’t you want to nominate Andy Cutler for the Nobel prize? No, you’ll change your mind when you cure yourself.

    John: Please come back when you have something coherent to say that makes some logical sense and is consistent with reality.

  61. Joseph: “John: Please come back when you have something coherent to say that makes some logical sense and is consistent with reality.”

    Ain’t ever gonna happen, Joseph… gonna have to get used to that, man.

    Looks like J there is a far more rational person that JBJr will ever become. John’s taken to fuckin’ talking to himself again.

    That’s not the sign of madness.

    He’s mad because he answers himself back!

    Oh shit… he’s a fucked head with a fucked mind… and going further down every two seconds!

  62. It’s kind of weird, I just moderated out a piece of spam (it seems like 95% of my comments are spam) that was all about how someone was going to rape me in the butt and make me enjoy it and thank them and ask for more. Until I saw that it was about sexual topics, the pattern of the words (remember my comprehension is pattern-based, so it takes a minute) made me think it was more of John Best telling me how wonderful I’d find a cure. The patterns of wording were nearly identical. (No, it wasn’t him, but it was a disturbing commentary on the way he forms language.)

  63. To be honest, that is quite disturbing, although I couldn’t imagine that even of him.

    Some sick folk about.

  64. “Well, he has a point. As a parent, it’s your duty to decide whether or not your child requires ‘treatment’. If your child’s speech is delayed and in 10 years time says “why didn’t you treat my autism”, I would imagine you would feel pretty low.”

    He might have a point if:

    a) Autism was treatable. It isn’t. Communication delay is, however.
    b) If to him, the word ‘treatment’ and the word ‘chelation’ weren’t interchangeable.

    “What about the autistic minors and autistics that haven’t acquired free will? They don’t fit into your little hub, do they? That’s the sad irony kev. Or do you shoe horn them in with your ‘mind bending’ techniques?”

    Haven’t acquired free will? When did free will become an acquisition? I’m not sure what your point is here exactly. You’re right that I don’t want minors in the Hub though. Not because they’re autistic but because they’re minors and to be frank, its not safe to have kids somewhere where people like John are.

    If you want to discuss the abuse of free will, look no further than John’s comment stating he would make himself someone’s legal guardian and enforce medical quackery on them. Does that sound like free will to you?

    And for you Susan – nice to see you’re still practising the art of contrived avoidance. One of these days you’re going to realise that sticking your fingers in your ears and going ‘LA-LA-LA-I CAN’T HEAR YOU’ at the top of your voice solves nothing.

  65. Ballastexistenz,

    “(No, it wasn’t him, but it was a disturbing commentary on the way he forms language.)”
    Why bother mentioning it then.

    Looking at Mr Andrews’ disturbing ‘pattern-based’ language, maybe it was him.

    If you consider this a threat you should report it to the police as it is highly offensive.

  66. Kevin_1000: “Looking at Mr Andrews’ disturbing ‘pattern-based’ language, maybe it was him.”

    Um… given your propensity to keep shoving the blame at everyone but yourself or your distasteful imbecilic friends, it might actually have been you.

    Wouldn’t put it past any of you.

    One thing I do know… wasn’t me.

    But it definitely does have that same pattern of JBJr’s style of writing to people, doesn’t it?

    Kevin L: “And for you Susan – nice to see you’re still practising the art of contrived avoidance.”

    Only thing she’s any good at.

    Kevin L: “One of these days you’re going to realise that sticking your fingers in your ears and going ‘LA-LA-LA-I CAN’T HEAR YOU’ at the top of your voice solves nothing.”

    She won’t. She hasn’t got the intellectual ability to realise that; if she had, she’d have done it already.

    Kevin L: “Not because they’re autistic but because they’re minors and to be frank, its not safe to have kids somewhere where people like John are.”

    My daughter’s heard about JBJr, and I think she may have seen or heard quotes of his ‘material’. She has a non-verbal IQ of about 150 (WASI). She thinks that JBJr is ‘an idiot’. She’s 8 next January, and she formed an opinion – based on her own knowledge of JBJr – that the man’s an idiot.

    How old is Sam Best? I wonder if he feels the same way about JBJr!

  67. “And for you Susan – nice to see you’re still practising the art of contrived avoidance.”

    Yes Kev, I’m still excercising my free will, not to “debate” with “contrived” creeps who make my skin crawl.

    I see you’re still practicing your feigned ignorance of the word NO.

    “One of these days” you’re going to accept that NO MEANS NO.

  68. Kevin L”If you want to discuss the abuse of free will, look no further than John’s comment stating he would make himself someone’s legal guardian and enforce medical quackery on them. Does that sound like free will to you?”

    I’d say that someone who would wish to do that is clearly someone who cannot live without feeling powerful; such a person whould probably feel very little authority over his/her own life and would therefore act out by exercising excessive authority over someone else’s life in an attempt to defend his/her ego from threat of realising his/her own ineffectuality over or in his/her own life. The very act of saying that one would do such a thing, regardless of the results (or lack thereof) arising from a properly conducted assessment of need and ability, suggests that such a statement was made by a person who would be a very poor choice for any professional post, or any post in which s/he might have to advocate for someone who could be described as ‘vulnerable’ (whether adult or child).

    Self-appointment as someone’s ‘legal’ guardian (i.e., in a manner not approved by law) would be unwarranted interference in that someone’s life, and could – given the purpose for which guardianship would be imposed – amount to ‘intent to practise medicine without a licence’ and to do so recklessly with regard to possible endangerment of life (in other words, to commit an act of so-called ‘reckless endangerment’). I’d say that, should anything happen in the future regarding Johnny Bastard Jr and his conduct, this sort of posting could be offered as character reference material. He’s certainly not the sort of person that NH DDC should ever consider appointing to any post with them… even cleaning piss-soaked stuff out of troughs in the toilets. I’d also suggest that JBJr has formally annouced his intent to commit criminal offences, having mouthed off with statements to the effect of assuming guardianship by force and then imposing upon the person a treatment whose efficacy has never been demonstrated and whose safety is absolutely under question.

    Wonder if the NH DDC are aware of this intent on JBJr’s part.

    Oh, and … JBJr (if you have managed to find someone who’ll read this to you), making yourself someone’s legal guardian (without their fully informed consent) would actually invalidate the legality of that guardianship. In other words, Johnny Imbecile, it would be impossible to do so.

    Just another example of JBJr’s inability to deal with things logically. You see, from a definitional point of view, JBJr just isn’t intelligent. Watch…

    Spearman’s tripartite definition of intelligence (to be intelligent under this definition requires that one is able under all three parts):

    i) the ability to apprehend reality: being able to pick up on the salient points of a given matter.

    JBJr’s thread on Kev’s blog demonstrates clearly that JBJr has not apprehended the reality of how errant his ‘thoughts’ are or how irrational his belief system is.

    ii) the ability to perceive relationships: being able to see how those salient points relate to each other.

    JBJr’s postings all over the internet demonstrate that he has a serious lack of ability to perceive the relationships between the points he sees as salient, and also the lack of ability to see the relationships between points of a matter that actually are the salient points.

    iii) the ability to educe correlations: being able to extrapolate from the situation currently being considered to another situation to be considered but which has not yet been brought about.

    JBJr’s postings all over the internet suggest that he is unable to consider the implications of his statements: his declared intent – on numerous occasions – to commit criminal offences; and his lack of realisation that forcing someone to have him as their legal guardian would in fact negate any legality – if there truly could be any – in the arrangement. This inability (along with the two above) negates the notion that he is possessed of any quality that can be considered to fall within the Spearman definition of intelligence (which is the definition upon which all intelligence tests are actually based).

  69. Okay, everyone, it’s really dumb to keep accusing each other of having written this — if someone here had written it, I’d known, because of IP addresses. It really was spam, that’s all, and I was just saying it was a weird and eerie similarity.

    Kevin, I’m not totally following you, but I’m not a liar.

  70. ballastexistenz: “Okay, everyone, it’s really dumb to keep accusing each other of having written this — if someone here had written it, I’d known, because of IP addresses.”

    That much I got, even if Kevin_1000 can’t handle that he was totally wrong to blame me (tough titty, Kevin_1000… why is your mind so fucked up? Sticking with Sue for so fucking long? Or are you that full of hatred for autistics that you have to be such a bastard 24/7?).

    I initially said I didn’t believe it was JBJr… although it was his pattern of language, and even that didn’t convince me that it was JBJr. Plus, I was aware of the fact that ballastexistenz knows who it was or wasn’t purely because of the IP issue.

    I’m not stupid, Kevin_1000, but you evidently are.

    ballastexistenz: “It really was spam, that’s all, and I was just saying it was a weird and eerie similarity.”

    Precisely.

    So, why – Kevin_1000 – did you want to try to iplicate me even though you must have been aware that ballastexistenz has already said what she knew of the situation? Is it because you have an intense hatred for any autistic who happens to have done well without being cured?

    Kevin_1000… you’re a serious loser. I mean, really… if this is what you have to do to feel good about yourself, you are one fucked up loser, and I can’t really see that changing, can you?

    ballastexistenz: “Kevin, I’m not totally following you, but I’m not a liar.”

    Kevin_1000 doesn’t want people to follow him; he doesn’t give a shit, as long as he’s accusing someone else of something that he’d do if he’d the bottle to do it.

  71. kev,

    “Autism was treatable. It isn’t..” (If you’ve used any drugs or supplements for your child that statement is illogical.)

    “b)..”

    And where does he say that?

    “I’m not sure what your point is here exactly.”

    My point is that some autistics don’t have the cognitive awareness to understand that they have a disability. Someone has to make a judgement for them. The “don’t speak for me” attitude leaves them out in the cold.

    I have a mind kev. I can form my own opinions of John.

    The people blogging who are the so called ‘curebies’ are parents with disabled minors who want to help them. If people oppose or canvass against their views/rights to treatment then they are effectively denying what they feel their child has a right to.

    ‘Curebies’ aren’t blogging to deny adult autistics or impose anything on them. They are free to do as they wish. But expect some flak if you go against the above.

    Andrews,

    Save your breath for your blow up girlfriend.

    Mr Seidel,

    “Kevin_1000, do you really equate Lupron with baked beans?”

    Well they’re both safe, except for the new data coming in on the beans (see above). No-one is forcing you to take Lupron, Dave.

  72. David Andrews said;

    “But it definitely does have that same pattern of JBJr’s style of writing to people, doesn’t it?”

    How do you know this? Nobody has seen it apart from Amanda?

  73. “No-one is forcing you to take Lupron, Dave.”

    What a moronic statement. No one is forcing him to shoot refugees in the hotspots of Africa, but I bet Dave is concerned about it. But children are forced to take up arms and shoot refugees there and likewise

  74. some kids here are having Lupron forced upon them. Urine injections too. Deadly EDTA injections too. So is there a problem that Dave is bothered by this? Deal with the fact that the Seidels have taken autism advocacy up as a cause and that Lupron abuse is in their crosshairs.

    I suppose that if I were just another lamb in flock of Generation Rescue and Evidence of Harm conspiracy theorists, I’d do whatever I could to sling mud at the Seidels as well. It’s got to be tough knowing that some regular people are giant-killers (by giant, I mean ego and paycheck).

  75. jonsmum: “How do you know this? Nobody has seen it apart from Amanda?”

    Um… I guess your adility to read is selective.

    Amanda already described the form of it, and it is of the same form as JBJr’s rantings.

    Learn to read.

    Kevin_1000: “Save your breath for your blow up girlfriend.”

    That the best you can do?

    Not very good. Pathetic really.

    But that’s you all over, isn’t it?!

    Jumped-up-wanna-still-be-captain-but-they-won’t-let-me-anymore: “Andrews; Every PARENT should petition for legal guardianship of autistic children. Failure to do so is negligence on the part of those parents. If your parents are not your guardians, they are negligent. You adult autistics who accept the utter nonsense touted by Neurodiversity are victims. If you had decent parents, they would educate you to this fact and they would be contacting Generation Rescue to investigate giving you a better life free from your disability. One of these days, Social Services will realize the truth about mercury and autism and you will all be rounded up and cured for your own good. Only an insane person would want to be disabled. Social Services routinely puts people in protective custody and will do so once they become aware of the facts relative to autism. Unfortunately for you David, the length of time it takes the Government to learn anything useful will probably bo too long to help you. In the meantime, I offer you my asistance in helping you and others like you to improve their lives.”

    Shitting Jesus!!!! Where do I start?! You just demonstrated exactly what I mean about your lack of intelligence, you dumb sod.

    I really do feel sad for Sam. I can’t imagine that your being his dad is doing him any good at this point, if that little tirade is anything to go by. You really are not a rational or well man.

    Get treatment.

  76. “(If you’ve used any drugs or supplements for your child that statement is illogical.)”

    What drugs exist to treat autism?

    “My point is that some autistics don’t have the cognitive awareness to understand that they have a disability. Someone has to make a judgement for them. The “don’t speak for me” attitude leaves them out in the cold.”

    Hardly. I think your imposition of your opinion on what constitutes ‘free will’ is not what theirs might be. Your further judgement that they are incapable of even forming any opinions is also your judgement. Even if you were right, how exactly does an expression of ‘don’t speak for me’ expressed by some autistic people infringe on their free will?

    “The people blogging who are the so called ‘curebies’ are parents with disabled minors who want to help them. If people oppose or canvass against their views/rights to treatment then they are effectively denying what they feel their child has a right to.”

    Denying their efficacy and safety in some instances, yes. Me, I’d rather my daughter was autistic than dead or injured as a result of quackery.

    “‘Curebies’ aren’t blogging to deny adult autistics or impose anything on them. They are free to do as they wish. But expect some flak if you go against the above.”

    Curbies aren’t blogging at all as far as I can see, except for John and he doesn’t really count.

    And yes, curbies are attempting to coerce the autism debate into places it shouldn’t go. Wasting more research money in this ridiculous search for a link with vaccines for a start. I’d rather that money went into ways to improve education for autistic kids.

    The associated political efforts to link autism to MMR or thiomersal using words like ‘epidemic’, ‘disease’, ‘train wrecks’ serve only to further the stigma and ignorance surrounding autism. Some day your child and mine are going to have to try and function as autistic adults in a world that people like you made think they are plague carriers or diseased.

    Susan –

    “I see you’re still practicing your feigned ignorance of the word NO. One of these days” you’re going to accept that NO MEANS NO.”

    lol…or in your case, ‘no’ means ‘can’t’ ;o)

    Avoiding this debate isn’t doing your child any good Susan. All its doing is allowing you a few more days in blissful ignorance.

  77. Kevin_2000: “No-one is forcing you to take Lupron, Dave.”

    No, it is being forced on children. In some cases, the children have to be restrained by two adults so that they can be given a painful intramuscular injection (on a daily basis). This a great formula for PTSD. Not to mention that no one has any idea of the long-term effects of this drug on children who do *not* qualify for a diagnosis of premature puberty, which is the only childhood condition for which Lupron is approved. No one is being cured here — this is nothing but behavior control. Safe according to who?

  78. Correction: the intramuscular injections are usually administered monthly, thankfully. It is the subcutaneous ones that are given daily. My point still stands.

  79. Dave,

    “..the children have to be restrained by two adults..”

    Your knowledge of autism must be limited. Some autistic children have to be restrained to have their hair cut. Why don’t you stick to washing dishes.

    Of course, you know better than all the parents and scientists, not. Do you think that parents trying to help their disabled kids will really give a shit what you think. As long as they can do what they feel is necessary and safe for their child you will pale into insignificance, along with Kathleen Infidel.

    Just as well you don’t have any influence in the treatment of disabled kids or you might find a group of vigilante parents queuing outside your door to beat the living daylights out of you. Ditto for kev, Andrews and Monkey.

    Not that I would condone that.

  80. kev,

    “Some day your child and mine are going to have to try and function as autistic adults in a world that people like you made think they are plague carriers or diseased.”

    I don’t know what your problem is, but it must be hard to pronounce.

  81. Okay. As the person who moderates this blog:

    1. Stop calling each other names

    2. Stop acting like obnoxious children in a schoolyard. “LA-LA-I CAN’T HEAR YOU” is not useful conversation, it’s something I expect from spoiled six-year-olds.

    3. Stop making all sorts of snide little putdowns and personal attacks.

    4. Don’t make any threats of violence, veiled or otherwise. I’m not stupid and “not that I would condone this” doesn’t absolve you of responsibility for making such threats. Do not even try to convince me you’re not doing this, just stop it.

    Most of all, after I post this, do not reply to tell me that those on the “other side” are doing this, because they’re idiots or morons or insane or mentally unbalanced or whatever your current disability-derivative insult is. Again, do not try to convince me that you’re not doing this, do not use what I am saying as leverage to hurl insults at the other side, do not try to flip things around to make yourself blameless and put someone else down. Do not simply go more veiled with the way you are doing this. Just stop. Now.

    I’m sure all of you are grown up and capable of telling the difference between a debate, even a heated debate, and a mudslinging match. Heated debate I don’t mind, but that’s not what is going on here.

    Most of you — on all sides of this debate — are acting like children. Grow up.

    I will be moderating this thread from here on out. If you don’t want your well-crafted arguments to disappear into oblivion, don’t do this stuff, because I’m not going to waste my time editing out the bad parts, I’m just going to check the “delete” box on your comment. This goes for all of you. I’m not going to ban any of you at this point, but I’m not going to put up with schoolyard nonsense either.

    (To the person who thinks I engaged in this before: I think otherwise, but the point is that I’m moderating this stuff from here on out, not erasing old posts, mine, yours, or anybody’s. End of discussion.)

  82. Mr. Best,

    It is evident from post 38 and post 99 that you support rounding up autistics, denying them the legal right to make decisions, and subjecting them to chelation, by force, if necessary. In this comment thread http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/?p=360, specifically in comments 53 and 56, you suggest that homosexuality may be caused by mercury. Do you also support rounding up all gays and lesbians, depriving us of legal control over our lives and forcing us to submit to your treatments?

  83. Bright Chapper,

    “some kids here are having Lupron forced upon them. Urine injections too. Deadly EDTA injections too. So is there a problem that Dave is bothered by this? Deal with the fact that the Seidels have taken autism advocacy up as a cause and that Lupron abuse is in their crosshairs.”

    Well, whilst they have Lupron in their crosshairs they also have the parents. Could cause a little friction. Do they know better than scientists and parents? Hmmm…

  84. “Well, whilst they have Lupron in their crosshairs they also have the parents.”

    This doesn’t make sense to me. By this reasoning, nobody would ever blow the whistle on anything dangerous if it was in use by anyone else.

    “Do they know better than scientists and parents?”

    They *are* parents. Does that make them right?

  85. But you do think all adult autistics should have a legal guardian, correct? I’m going by post 99 where you described parents who didn’t petition for legal guardianship as negligent. You also suggested that Social Services take autistics into protective custody. I’m not suggesting you would break the law. In Post 99, from what I understood, you endorse depriving everyone diagnosed with autism of legal authority to life decisions, regardless of age. And judging by post 38, you feel it’s reasonable to subject an autistic person to chelation, over their clearly communicated objections, provided you have the legal right to do so. So that would be forced chelation for all autistic people who’s guardians permitted it, and everyone who didn’t have a legal guardian.

    If the legal guardian explicitly refused to allow chelation, would you support their legal right to do so? If an autistic adult who could clearly communicate by typing expressed a desire for chelation and the legal guardian refused, would you still support the guardian’s right to make medical decisions? Or do you think people with autism should have the right to control over their own bodies when they agree with you?

    And since you don’t think there’s a cure for being gay, does that mean you don’t believe it’s caused by mercury poisoning? Was the post I cited a joke of yours, or have you changed your views? Personally I’m relieved you’re not attempting to cure me.

  86. I don’t have time to read all of these posts and comments, and I am sadly lacking in familiarity with any of the people or blogs on here, but I could not help but feel that all this back and forth bickering between people who want to advocate is doing nothing but disracting us all and hurting those individuals who can not yet speak/communicate for themselves.
    My younger brother was diagnosed with autism 12 years ago and we have been trying for the last several years to provide him with the resources and support he needs to communicate any way he can. This includes PECS and FC. I really look up to individuals like you, Amanda, who have learned ways to communicate rather efficiently. To those that think FC is just abuse: Can you provide the means for a non verbal individual with autism to communicat? Please let me know!! Otherwise, keep your snide comments and your negative opinions out of the way of decent people trying to allow individuals to take part in their community any way that they can. I would do anything to be able to communicate with Daniel (my brother) efficiently.
    Also, to those of you who are going on about this “cure”: if an individual is diagnosed with autism, but can function efficiently and live in a way that is acceptable to them, then I would say that is GREAT! If they do not want a “cure” so what? They are happy!(efficiently is defined by the one doing the functioning btw) LEAVE THEM ALONE. If an individual chose to take a cure, that is their decision is it not? It is not for me or anyone else to say what is good or bad for something I/we have never experienced. Autism has changed my life, and I’m not the diagnosed indiv. my brother is. There are some things I wish were different (ie I wish I could communicate with Daniel, I wish he could tell me when and what is wrong, etc) but I would not trade him for a “normal” brother. EVER. The only reason I would, at this moment in time, choose to give a “cure” to Daniel, would be because he is unable to function in society currently, and I would love to see him able to take an equal part in the social whirl that is the life of a fifteen year old. This he cannot do at the moment, but we are working on that.
    On the other hand my cousin has Aspergers and she is quite able to function and communicate. She says she would take a cure. She is unhappy with her current state. Amanda is NOT. That is wonderful, leave her alone.
    Have any of you ever seen X-Men III? Thats what this makes me think of.. lol!

  87. Oh, Jesus! Okay, I have a few more things to say after glancing back up the page.
    Autism does NOT MEAN STUPID! Amanda seems to be demonstrating her cognitive awareness quite well. Making decisions for an adult individual that is telling you they can make their own decisions is nothing short of imprisoning that individual. Even if the individual does not make the best decisions, who cares? I don’t always make the best decisions, but I’m 20 and my parents are not trying to and can not take guardianship of me. It should be no other way for any individual just because they have autism. I could go on about this forever, but I have not the time to make it clear enough for everyone what an injustice it woule be to basically deny someone the right to become an adult.

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